Monday, October 24, 2005

The Verdicts

Irwin Schiff
guilty on counts, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and 23
 
Cindy Guilty on counts, 1, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 24, 25, 27, 28, 29, 32, and 33
 
I don't have Larry's yet. I can't bare to blog this.
 
Angela

162 Old Comments:

Quuuaaatttllloooooosss!!!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:31 PM  

Thanks for the compassion, Atleast we can associate Quatloos with arrogance.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:35 PM  

This is the beginning of the End. We should storm the White House!!!

By Blogger Starfish Prime, at 10/24/2005 4:35 PM  

Come on, this guy has been selling his tax stuff for 20 years and now they want to come after him. Hasn’t he been convicted once or twice, yet he is still out there.
Come on! Come On!

My son failed to pay traffic ticket and they came out to my house and took him to jail.

If I put a sign up on the street that said you do not need a liquor license to sell booze come in and I will show you how. Hell, I would be close in a week and in jail a month later.

He has had a sign on one of the main streets in Las Vegas for as long as I can remember and now they decide to do something. Can they read?

It says me he’s telling the truth. Hell, it yells he telling the truth!

God Bless The Patriots!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:38 PM  

Please help get his appeal in asap.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:38 PM  

Irwin is consistant if nothing else. His tax savvy is not matched by his trial record.

I am deeply saddened but even sadder to say I am not surprised.

Back to the fight but the outcome is clear now.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:38 PM  

TP's are a movement with no vision and no plan.

Who wants to be the next "guru"?

Show us your plan!

By Anonymous Reasonable Guy, at 10/24/2005 4:39 PM  

Reasonable Guy,
People are not TP'S, and we do not need any guru's
We need the AMERICAN Public to wake up, you sure are still living in a box.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:41 PM  

Joe bannister found not guilty bit these people are guilty? something is seriously wrong here

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:45 PM  

Maybe this should sober up some of the Schiff koolaid drinkers?

Schiff's junk doesn't work! It doesn't work for Schiff, and it's never worked for any of his followers either, i.e., Steve Swan, Dr. Dentice, etc., etc., etc.

Next to go down: Ward Dean.

Quit drinking the koolaid!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:46 PM  

reasonable guy,

You Son of a Bitch! Get off these blogs with your comments!

The government is the one with a plan to ruin the constitution, and turn this nation into a third world country being in tremendous debt, with eventually a tax rate that makes no one able to live freely.

Irwin did not get a fair trial. Of course he'll be found guilty from the Jury Instructions.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:48 PM  

Quit drinking the koolaid!

Hey its the same koolaid the founding fathers drank. It ultimately worked for them, but there were casualties....

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:49 PM  

"Joe bannister found not guilty bit these people are guilty? something is seriously wrong here"

The difference is that Joe Banister was not even tried for failure to file BECAUSE ACCORDING TO HIS ATTORNEY JOE WAS PAYING HIS TAXES ALL ALONG. Yes, there is a message in there for you.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:50 PM  

I do not understand...I really, really, really do not understand...the gov't did not present any evidence whatsoever. Can someone please explain how a jury can come to such a verdict. I am shell shocked...

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:51 PM  

There ya go! What do you expect from a jury that is restricted from seeing the FACTS, and the LAW, and instead, forced to do what the judge says!

Clearly, the judge is guilty of steering the jury away from a FACTUAL EVIDENCE and LAW, and instead, frabricating false hoods in order to railroad Schiff.

The Govt and the prosecuters are cowards!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:53 PM  

Just how many on the jury were government plants? How did the government threaten the jurists? I do not trust this government any further than I can spit and I spit on this government. Up until just a half hour ago I would have defended it until the end but now I am convinced that those who are responsible for what has become of the American way are nothing but the enemy of freedom.

By Blogger Macloed, at 10/24/2005 4:55 PM  

It's hard to feel compassion for someone who's been selling snake oil to the gullible, the paranoid, and the disgruntled, all of whom will rationalize this verdict to death to avoid admitting that they've been had.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:57 PM  

The jury went by the made up law given in the jury instructions!

Because they were not allowed to see the actual code, and are too dumb to realize that the judge and the prosecution were working together to hide the law, they came out with that verdict.

All members of the jury are paying taxes and are asleep as to the facts of tax laws. Of course you're going to get a guilty verdict! The government didn't have to proove anything.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:57 PM  

Can someone please post the charges he was found guilty of. Thanks.

As for Banister, he has yet to be tried for personal tax issues. He was charged in assiting someone else to file. The US is about planning an attack to charge him for his own personal tax issues. Be prepared for the attack.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:57 PM  

"the gov't did not present any evidence whatsoever."

Quit drinking the koolaid. The government put on a month-and-a-half worth of evidence, and all the defendants together only put on one day of evidence, and most of that were worthless character witnesses.

But Irwin will get a chance to appeal, just like has every time before.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:58 PM  

For reasonable guy and anonymous,
The first plan would be to stop people like yourself from breathing up the precious oxygen on this planet. It apparently does not help your brains function to full capacity as evident from the crap that you two constantly spit out!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 4:58 PM  

Anonymous said...
reasonable guy,

You Son of a Bitch! Get off these blogs with your comments!

The government is the one with a plan to ruin the constitution, and turn this nation into a third world country being in tremendous debt, with eventually a tax rate that makes no one able to live freely.

Irwin did not get a fair trial. Of course he'll be found guilty from the Jury Instructions.

10/24/2005 5:48 PM

************************

Typical trash talk from a TP. One never gets to exchange in civilized discussion.

How's that plan coming?

By Anonymous Reasonable Guy, at 10/24/2005 4:59 PM  

we need 10,000 posts. If all want to storm the White House just post the words, "PATRIOT WILL DISSENT"

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:00 PM  

patriot will dissent.

By Blogger Starfish Prime, at 10/24/2005 5:01 PM  

TOLD YA!!!!!!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:02 PM  

patriot will dissent

By Blogger lifetimenonfiler, at 10/24/2005 5:02 PM  

Well, that makes two of you. Either of you have a car and enough gas money to get to D.C.?

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:02 PM  

The Fraud is GIGANTIC...even Quatloos knows that...it will not be easy to bring the beast down.

And if you don't receive a fair trial, you have no chance. If Schiff had a fair trail it would have been NOT guilty...even Quatloos knows that.

By Anonymous An Ant, at 10/24/2005 5:03 PM  

Irwin was unjustly found guilty on all counts.

By Blogger LAWoman, at 10/24/2005 5:03 PM  

"The Fraud is GIGANTIC"

Yeah, and thousands of people believed in it and bought Irwin's junk.

So much for the zero return theory. And the next silver bullet de-tax guru will be who?

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:06 PM  

Come one everyone! Let's band together: One and ALL. Speak for your nation. WE MUST ACT NOW!

PATRIOT WILL DISSENT

PATRIOT WILL DISSENT

PATRIOT WILL DISSENT

Type these words so all will see what the People have to say about the INCOME TAX! We will gather at the capitol. We need 10,000!!

Three words.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:09 PM  

Heard that Irwin was convicted of all counts; Cindy was convicted of all counts except one; but Larry got off with only a conviction on a single count.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:09 PM  

Anonymous said...
It's hard to feel compassion for someone who's been selling snake oil to the gullible, the paranoid, and the disgruntled, all of whom will rationalize this verdict to death to avoid admitting that they've been had.


Yeah, the government has been fooling us for so many years...you are correct, we have been had.

By Anonymous An Ant, at 10/24/2005 5:10 PM  

Still trying to get "Patriot Will Dissent" number 3? If you can get him, and maybe one more guy, it will be easier to split the gas bill.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:10 PM  

Do any of you now believe it's time for passing J.A.I.L. For Judges (http://jail4judges.org) in your states and at the federal level to rein in the criminal judges?

By Blogger Jim Paulson, at 10/24/2005 5:14 PM  

That's because a lot of People are COWARDS.

If it weren't for a brave few, we wouldn't have this country.

Satan is God of this Earth and it was demonstrated today.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:15 PM  

Irwin will appeal. He should at least get a mistrial declared.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:17 PM  

I keep telling you guys to get a plan to change the law if you don't like it.

So where's your plan?

By Anonymous Reasonable Guy, at 10/24/2005 5:19 PM  

I know. The answer just came to me. The only way us tax honesty people can stop paying taxes is by all going to jail. The burden will then be put onto the mindless, government loving quatloo types. We won't have to pay anymore taxes and the quatloos will have to support my so called "tp" ass to the tune of $35,000 per year. They can't get any of my money if i don't have a job. You quatloos keep on working and giving your money to the government. You will soon be giving more and more of that prescious green to support all of us in jail.
Thanks for your support
Sincerely,
Uncle Sam

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:20 PM  

Reasonable Guy said...
I keep telling you guys to get a plan to change the law if you don't like it.

So where's your plan?


You need to get your facts straight...THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE LAW, IT IS THE WAY IT IS BEING ADMINISTERED BY OUR GOVERNMENT!

...but then you know that already.

By Anonymous An Ant, at 10/24/2005 5:23 PM  

Amerika is Mystery Babylon

Where LIES rule
And the TRUTH is always HIDDEN

Yahshua ha Mashiach is returning with a VENGEANCE, He is coming back to JUDGE the nations and people(s) and destroy the works of Satan
Great and horrific destruction is coming quickly. Hide... in Yahshua

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:23 PM  

==================================
D o n ' t G e t E x c i t e d
==================================
Folks, Folks, don't fret! Don't get excited by the postings of those who are clearly "anti-freedom".

Why do you get upset with those who have sold their soul and are now drones of their evil master?

Let the soulless speak what they will about us. After all, fools they are, and as every day goes by, more and more able to understand the truth- namely that the Govt is afraid of the people and therefore must resort to trickery, lies and star chambers to punish those who speak the truth and challenge the fraud.

Just remember that even though they have the money, the power, and the guns, as each day goes by, more and more people learn the truth, and as each day goes by, more and more people get fed up with the lies, and as each day goes by, more and more people are figuring out that the true cowards are the ones in the Govt who must resort to abuse and falsehood- as we saw in this trial.

I’m sure Irwin will be appealing it, in the end, the judge will be arrested, the prosecutors disbarred and the people vindicated.

Just keep spreading the word, keep educating people about what the LAW really says, keep showing people what the Govt is forced to do because their backs are against the wall, and don’t loose heart.

Our children deserve to be free and not ruled by a bunch of power hungry flunkies that have mental health issues as well as personalities that are chalked full of insecurity!

Just remember… The TRUTH is spreading like wild fire. So fan the flames of the TRUTH, and let your neighbors read the LAW, and support your fellow Americans- stay involved, and get a good laugh when you go to sleep at night because the IRS agent, Federal Prosecutor, and blogger who is responding negatively about Schiff is clearly not willing to embrace the truth, because, no truth is in him. They are liars, and everyone knows it!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:24 PM  

Larry Cohen was found NOT guilty on all but one count.

Meaning that he was found guilty of aiding and assisting in the filing of a false tax return, but found NOT guilty of conspiracy to defraud the US, NOT guilty on two counts of attempting to evade and defeat tax, and NOT guilty on three counts of aiding and assisting in the filing of false income tax returns.

Cindy Neun was also found not guilty on one count of willful failure to file a tax return for 1999, but guilty on all other counts (including three counts of failing to file tax returns for 2000 through 2002, and two counts relating to her Social Security fraud).

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:24 PM  

An Ant said...
Reasonable Guy said...
I keep telling you guys to get a plan to change the law if you don't like it.

So where's your plan?

You need to get your facts straight...THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE LAW, IT IS THE WAY IT IS BEING ADMINISTERED BY OUR GOVERNMENT!

...but then you know that already.

10/24/2005 6:23 PM
**************************

Yes, I remember that in your deluded fantasy the world is flat.

Remember, keep the faith and never stop tilting at windmills!

By Anonymous Reasonable Guy, at 10/24/2005 5:28 PM  

I think the jury was rigged or at least some jurors They could have just taken some time and asked for the code book ect to make it less obvious how else could they convict a man who was not allowed tp defend himself? This trial has fumed the flames of the tax honesty movement.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:32 PM  

"I’m sure Irwin will be appealing it, in the end, the judge will be arrested, the prosecutors disbarred and the people vindicated."

Yeah, just like what happened when Irwin was convicted before. [[roll eyes]]

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:33 PM  

Mark this date on your calendar fellow patriots as THE DAY THE CONSTITUTION DIED BY THE HAND OF FEDERAL JUDGE KENT J. DAWSON AT THE ORDER OF THE FEDERAL MAFIA!

By Blogger We the Constitutionalists, at 10/24/2005 5:33 PM  

they did ask for the code book

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:37 PM  

Irwin's mistake was recognized early in the proceedings. He may know the tax laws and code by rote, but he doesn't know trial procedure and is not a trial lawyer. Hopefully he will promptly appeal and with good appellate counsel in his corner.

By Anonymous HK, at 10/24/2005 5:40 PM  

Mark this date on your calendar fellow patriots as THE DAY THE CONSTITUTION DIED BY THE HAND OF FEDERAL JUDGE KENT J. DAWSON AT THE ORDER OF THE FEDERAL MAFIA!

Is this the same Constitution that explicitly and unequivocally gives Congress the power to tax income?

Samuel Johnson was right -- patriotism really is the last refuge of a scoundrel. It's also a favorite rationale of the paranoid.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:41 PM  

Yeah, just like after Lynne Meredith was convicted last year -- in three months, everybody will have forgotten about this and Irwin, just like they did about Lynne.

Just wait and watch.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:41 PM  

I think we can probably wait for an appeal court to deny Irwin, Cindy and Larry any form of due process of which we have been gaurnteed in the US constitution but has been denied to these patriots......We are closing in now on THE SECOND SHOT HEARD AROUND THE WORLD....time is short all, we can do now is prepare for the worst...civil war is near now or a new Revolution which ever you desire to call it is now upon us...
Brothers and Sisters ..God Speed and God be with you....Stand Now and tell them NO...they can take our life but they will never take our freedom.......some one else may have said it but you had better take it to heart....we are at the cliff and it is better to turn and fight than to let them push us over the cliff.

By Anonymous Ronray, at 10/24/2005 5:45 PM  

No man escapes when freedom fails, The best men rot in filthy jails. And those who cried, "appease appease" are hung by those they tried to please.

++++++++++++

So shall it be in the end times of America, and those are the times that have come to be.

America is lost and only God can save her now.


America is lost and only God can save her now.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 5:53 PM  

Turn up the sound!

http://www.varian.net/dreamweavn/neverending/
impossible.html

To dream the impossible dream,
to fight the unbeatable foe,
to bear with unbearable sorrow,
to run where the brave dare not go...

To right the unrightable wrong,
to love pure and chaste from afar,
to try when your arms are too weary
to reach the unreachable star!

This is my quest --
to follow that star
no matter how hopeless,
no matter how far --
To fight for the right
without question or pause,
to be willing to march into hell
for a heavenly cause!

And I know
if I'll only be true
to this glorious quest
that my heart
will be peaceful and calm
when I'm laid to my rest.

And the world will be better for this
that one man, scorned and covered with scars,
still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable stars!

By Anonymous Reasonable Guy, at 10/24/2005 5:56 PM  

Mark this date on your calendar fellow patriots as THE DAY THE CONSTITUTION DIED BY THE HAND OF FEDERAL JUDGE KENT J. DAWSON AT THE ORDER OF THE FEDERAL MAFIA!
The one thing we can do is flood the appeals court with protests regarding Judge Dawson’s rulings and jury instructions or if you are capable amicus curiae (friend of the court) briefs in support of Irwin, Cindy and Mr. Cohen.

By Blogger We the Constitutionalists, at 10/24/2005 5:58 PM  

Reasonable Guy said...

Yes, I remember that in your deluded fantasy the world is flat.

Remember, keep the faith and never stop tilting at windmills!


That's it? That's all the insult you can come up with?

Try again....I know you can do better than that.

By Anonymous An Ant, at 10/24/2005 6:03 PM  

Can't we find some of these Quatloos Ass #@%#@ and burn down their house or break their thumbs off so they can't suck on them.

Come on brothers we need to press on.

Or it's Hail IRS, Yesa Master IRS!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:08 PM  

What a shock!!!!
It’s not that hard to under stand people. example: you ask a car salesman to show you a red pickup truck but all he shows you are every thing but a red truck. so what would you think about? Well you should think that they don't have one!!! The car salesman is just trying to get you to buy something he has, not what you want!!!
Well here we are years later and we still don't have what we want!!
So what law makes us liable? They don't have one, if they did they would just show us.
I have been sucking down the "Kool-Aid" as of 1980 and I have only paid $622.00 to those thefts "IRS". So don’t tell me about how bad the info. is. May be you just aren't smart enough to put the info. to work for you???

By Blogger Tax Free, at 10/24/2005 6:10 PM  

Anonymous said...
Can't we find some of these Quatloos Ass #@%#@ and burn down their house or break their thumbs off so they can't suck on them.

Come on brothers we need to press on.

Or it's Hail IRS, Yesa Master IRS!


That might feel good to say, but only someone from Quatloos would actually want to do that to their fellow American and find joy. They are a sad bunch.

By Anonymous An Ant, at 10/24/2005 6:13 PM  

I can say with no dought that any one can be right in a crowd it takes a real man to stand against a corrupt wind. You can hide behind your government job and say Irwin was selling snake oil koolaid but we will see what tune you sing when you face the jury of the Lord my friend. Pitty you oh pitty little you.

By Anonymous Tim Sweeney, at 10/24/2005 6:17 PM  

>PATRIOT WILL DISSENT<

Wow, that’ll show them.
I’m glad I woke up from this Kool Aid dilution. All you people do is complain and use theories that are baseless in law. You will never learn.

Hey I have a plan for you. Pay your taxes or leave the Country. Easy enough for you?

Anonymous said: “Satan is God of this Earth and it was demonstrated today.”

I’m more pragmatic than you. Why fight it when you can use it? Hail Satan!

So, how’s that Revolution of yours coming along?
PATRIOT WILL DISSENT yea right!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:20 PM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:20 PM  

The case was nothing more than a logical fallacy called The Argument From Authority. The jury convicted after being told that -50,000 frenchmen (or judges) could not possibly be wrong. The reasonable know better. Irwin Schiff is right and no conviction so gained changes the fact that he is right. We must ask. Do we fight for what's right and good or abandon the world to the Judge Dawsons, the DOJ lawyers and the professional liars on quatloos. Some day, the country will pay its debt to Irwin. Until then we can only say thank you Irwin Schiff for showing the way. We take pride in having courage enough to defend the great country created for us by the Founders.

By Anonymous Ed, at 10/24/2005 6:21 PM  

Anybody read Judge Andrew Neopaleon CONSTITUTIONAL CHAOS, What happens when the government breaks it own laws? It time for US to HAPPEN.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:25 PM  

So is there an appeal and is there a way to actually make the government and IRS SHOW US THE LAW. The PEOPLE have a right to see, read, know and understand it.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:27 PM  

JUST SHOW US THE LAW. Sorry, I'm PISSED and hate this fricking gov & prejurdicial system.

Slave #643-74-9216

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:34 PM  

Was there any FELONY convictions, if so which ones?

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:35 PM  

look folks right wrong or a pipe dream
the goverment is here to serve the people. it is our duty to challange the goverment when they get out of control. 3.7trillion dollar budgets= out of control. we are not cattle to be herded around by the goverment. the hatred from some bloggers stating that we that believe in freedom and reform and truth are drinking the koolaid serves no purpose. this court has made many fundimetal mistakes and in the appeals process they will be exposed. who has interviewed the jurist? they may provide good insight into just what went wrong.
always keep fighting its your duty

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:36 PM  

CALM DOWN EVERYONE -

It's all about commerce and money and the quatooos and reasonable guy types don't know or care a thing about it.
BELOW ARE THE FACTS!

U.S. prison population continued to grow in 2004

October 23, 2005 Reuters

The U.S. prison population, already the largest in the world, grew by 1.9 percent in 2004, leaving federal jails at 40 percent over capacity, according to Justice Department figures released on Sunday.

Inmates in federal, state, local and other prisons totaled nearly 2.3 million at the end of last year, the government said. The 1.9 percent increase was lower than the average annual growth rate of 3.2 percent during the last decade.
According to the International Center for Prison Studies at King's College in London, there are more people behind bars in the United States than in any other country.

China had the second-largest prison population with 1.5 million prisoners, according to statistics updated in April and cited by King's College. The total U.S. population is about 296 million, while China's is 1.3 billion.


U.S. prison population continued to grow in 2004

FOR THOSE THAT DON'T COMPREHEND

THE US HAS ALMOST DOUBLE THE PRISONERS OF CHINA BUT ONLY A FOURTH THE POPULATION.

***THE STATUTES ARE THE BONDS.*** THEY MONITIZE THE DEBT PAPER THROUGH THE PRISON SYSTEM. FOLLOW THE PAPERTRAIL - FOLLOW THE MONEY.

THE QUATLOOS TYPES HAVE BEEN HAD AND THEY THINK THEY ARE REALLY COOL. YOU ARE NO BETTER OFF THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THIS ONCE WONDERFUL COUNTRY. WHY ACT SO SMUG WE'VE ALL BEEN HAD, IT'S JUST YOU DON'T KNOW IT....YET! CJ

By Anonymous CJ, at 10/24/2005 6:38 PM  

Anonymous said...
GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS BUT A FEW.

What did we expect? Trials are won prior to their commencement. Motion in Limine are the way to win in court. Now we have to run and hide to avoid the oppressive governemnt of the good ol' USA. We have no hope !!! Good luck to you all. Maybe you can move to Switzerland.

10/24/2005 4:55 PM

CAN YOU PLEASE POST WHAT THE CHARGES ARE AND IF THEY ARE MISDEMEANER OR FELONY CHARGES? THANKS

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:39 PM  

Months ago, an ex-IRS agent, Joe Bannister, was on trial for tax evasion. He was acquitted. They tried to take down one of their own and failed. Now there is another case being tried on a different person. (see website below). Before we go any further let me dispel any negative mindsets that are usually conjured up anytime one hears the terms tax evasion, tax fraud or even tax cheat. This report is not written on behalf of those irresponsible ignorant individuals that have been labeled one of the above monikers simple because they decided to quit paying income taxes and therefore choose to duck and weave the IRS until caught. It is written on behalf of a growing population of very educated and responsible individuals that have taken the time and in many cases, dedicated their adult lives to investigating this tax issue. They do not hide nor do they wait to be "caught". They have gone straight to the front lines to expose what they have found to be written and more importantly , not written in the tax codes. They have found serious evidence that a fraud has been committed on the American people by Government, on several levels and are demanding that the truth be revealed for all to see. A truth, that could do one of several things. Totally abolish the income tax system as we know it or at the very least realign it to where it can be understood by someone that is not educated in chinese x1000. Either way, it would be a benefit to the very population that has been trained by the IRS to look down their noses and scoff at these same responsible people.
To bring you up to date; this is very big as far as tax cases go. Of course it is a case that could rewrite history and tax law as we have known it for the past seven decades and affect everyone in the entire USA. Do you think main stream Media would cover it? Hell No! Even the most self described "Investigative Reporters" won't go near it for fear of an IRSS backLash.They would rather keep the public entertained with the latest high profile celebrity murder or missing persons report....(you know, important stuff that really affects your day to day life).. then get on board with millions of fellow Americans (ex-sheeple) who have done their own investigating and are asking the hard straight forward questions. One's like, where exactly is the law written that makes an individual liable to pay a tax on their hard earned income? I'm not talking about a round about law written in lawyer speak that "approaches the concept" of paying income tax...(the one that has fraudulently herded everyone from us to our great grandfathers into believing it is mandatory that we owe and pay a "voluntary" tax) I mean the real hard and to the point law that states unequivocally that we must pay or else.. law. To this day, no agency or bureaucrat or even the Department of Justice (DOJ) has been able to or even willing to crack a book or manual and pin point this supposed law. As a matter of fact, the DOJ has broken a constitutional law that allows for the People of this Nation to file a "Redress of Grievances" (ROG) against the government about this tax issue by simple ignoring the petition. A ROG is a vehicle that was put into the Constitution by our fore fathers allowing the People of this Nation to have an organized and lawful recourse against the Government and to hold it/them accountable when they feel that the Government is over stepping it"s bounds or working outside the Constitution itself. Again, when legally petitioned, they simple act as though it does not apply to them, thus breaking Constitutional Law. (They don't get a choice.. it has to be and must be answered by law). Again, this ROG is demanding clarification on the exact law that requires individuals to pay tax on their incomes.......they won't answer. In addition, the IRSS uses the word "voluntary" instead of mandatory in their printing to describe the paying of income tax because they can't get around the fact that they would be forcing an individual to give up his/her 5th amendment right not to incriminate themselves in a legal preceding. By law, it is illegal to force someone to break the law. This is supposed to be a Nation Governed by the People for the People not the other way around..and somewhere along the line while everyone had their heads turned it switched and we went from people to sheep being lead by a master.
Why do you think all this surface talk about tax reform has been cropping up? Not because the Government all of a sudden wants to be fair..yeah right. it's because of the internet and the free flow of information. Before, when someone wanted to investigate such a dull text book subject such as the origins of income tax law, they had to dig deep into old dusty archives and State Capitol Libraries, which hardly anyone did. Well, people have and that is what has caused this big question of "SHOW ME THE EXACT LAW" to appear. Because of the internet the genie is escaping the bottle and the Government is starting to sweat. It would take a lot of side stepping and tap dancing by the Government to explain why they thought it necessary to commit fraud on their own people for the past 70+ years. (By the way, there is no statute of limitations on fraud). I've noticed, anytime this subject comes up, not only in personal conversations but in public debate as well, someone will play what I refer to as the, "PATRIOTIC CARD" . "Oh, your Un-American if you don't think you should pay income tax". Why do you think the Government uses this same argument. I know why they use it, do you? When I hear an individual pull that CARD, I know right then that this person has not done their homework and has put way to much blind trust in our Government to do the right thing and look out for our well being. Anyone watching the present Cartel knows that's not true. Parents have been known to rape their own kids. Wake up! The Patriotic Card, like other Cards we have all seen used is designed to steer one in a direction away from the real truth. "But, the Government can't operate if you don't pay income tax". It did for 150 years up until 1933 and without being trillions of dollars in debt, I might add. I know times have changed and it is a different world now but the fundamental spirit of the original Constitution still holds true. Something has got to give and it can't keep being hard working individuals at the end of a long work week. Until elected officials at all levels realize that they are in office not because they are "Ordained by God", "High and Mighty" and free to feather their own nest as they see fit, but because they were entrusted by the people to hold a Post of importance. A Post that with selflessness, the right decisions, minus greed and self promotion, will carry on for the good and protection of our children long after we are gone. WHERE IS THAT? I used to trust and respect some politicians. As of late that has changed. Now I trust and respect exactly NONE. As a 90 year old widow friend of mine described it " They are all as crooked as a barrel of snakes". I'm inclined to agree 100%.
There are reasons why the Government does not want certain bits of tax information to become public knowledge. The longer the Government can ignore dealing with this tax issue, the longer they can keep this free flow of money streaming in. Thus continuing to enjoy the free spending of our hard earned money; from the extreme ridiculous to just blatantly wasting it, and not behind our backs, but right in front of our faces while daring us to say anything. People, this Bull Sh**t has got to stop.
Until someone aside from Jesus Christ himself steps up to the plate and starts telling the truth no matter how good or painful it may be, we are all left to waller in a disorganized country of moral decay and a quicksand of debt while the rest of the world applauds with laughter. A country where it's everyone for themselves and screw the other guy. We are a great nation but we use to be greater. Everyone has their day in the sun....our's is setting....after all, Rome fell.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:40 PM  

Well, if you consider the education or lack thereof, no wonder the jury came out with a guity verdict.
Fact is, if the jury was really educated, they would have known they can find what ever verdict they choose, no matter what a freaking judge says. Jurys are supposed to be the conscience of the law.........Period!

Of, Course I have read many times stupid jurys find people guilty on a wide range of charges, without any evidence by the govt, being put foreward at all!

One word to you fence riders/luke warm so-called wanna-be patriots, you're nothing but the likings of a torre to me.

I am not worried, because this whole damm fraud of a monetary system is on its last legg.

Too bad you wanna-be patriots do not know how to survive without a paying job!

I am with Schiff all along and not because I fully aggree with his tactic's, but because of his stance on the system as it is now!

It's a fraud and is FORCED on the American people!
As I recall, the Mobb forced people/business owners to give up moneys for protection purposes, so I liken the Federal Govt to the CRIMINAL MOBB!
YOUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED!

By Anonymous Robert, at 10/24/2005 6:48 PM  

There is only one way to kill the beast. Take that which is his most treasured object.

His money!! Maybe the movement is really moving in the wrong direction. I have watched you all bicker back and forth over the last few weeks and I have watched many others try and fail over the past few years.

The way to kill the beast is simple.

Take much much more than you give. Keep your INCOME (I use that term lightly) as low as possible. Do all your business in cash, don't use banks or credit. Don't invest in anything but gold and silver you can hold in your hand, and use any government benifit you are entitled to as a taxpayer to the max. Out of work? File for unemployment. Need money to start a businees? Get a grant from uncle or take out an SBA loan. Want to go to school, get a grant and a loan, sit on your asses and take take take. Can't pay your bills? Go bankrupt. TAKE TAKE TAKE. Have you retired, sign up for med benifits. TAKE TAKE TAKE

Pay your taxes but take back two to three times what you give.

National work stopages will help raise awareness, if it can be done right. Instead of court battles that are rigged against you, fight from inside. Your a taxpayer after all, your entitled. TAKE TAKE TAKE. Have a jopb but job with no health insurance? Were you a VET? Apply for VA med benifits, Buy that dream home with your VA loan, Start that small business. If it comes right down to it run your credit to the hilt and opps lost my job or business and write it all off.

Let's hit them where it really hurts. In their big fat wallets.

Play the game :)

By Blogger The Peon, at 10/24/2005 6:53 PM  

======================
Support Anti-Freedom
======================
Its clear- don’t you think- the “anti- freedom” contributors in this forum are not only insecure, but they are rude and in denial about the facts surrounding this case. It’s a shame to see that they have a diminished capacity for critical thinking in matters such as these. “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”.

So then, the many references to “koolaid” and other colorful words in their postings effectively support the notion that they are incapable of critical thinking (getting it right). Let’s pray the contributing “anti-freedom” people are not parents, because then, their children might grow to bear fruit- possibly bad fruit that fails to help the Nation!

It seems that the “freedom supporters” are rather tired of the mundane rhetoric the “socialists” & “anti- freedom” crowd keep spouting. All of us in the “freedom movement” are growing tired of their insults. Clearly, the “anti-freedom” crowd hates what America should stand for.

If I could have one wish, it would be that the people in the “anti-freedom” crowd could actually “be truthful”, “figure it out”, and take a stand against the “fraud”- like Irwin did!

While the “anti-freedom” crowd is not incredibly bright, they do have an uncanny talent for “babbling” and for being “pushy”. So then, if they would be truthful, and actually expose the FRAUD that the courts have perpetrated- like in Irwin’s case- then chains might start to loosen and our children might grow up free as opposed to being slaves.

Also, everyone knows that Irwin IS RIGHT, because, the NEWS MEDIA failed to cover the trial. Think about it! If Irwin were wrong, they would have covered the Trial to make an example of him to all of us in the Freedom movement. However, they stayed away to avoid having to report the lies, and illegal acts of the judge and the court. Clearly the judge, the prosecutors and the system had thrown jurisprudence out the window in order to ramrod Irwin by any means necessary- including, the suppression of evidence, the LAW, the rules, and fairness.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:54 PM  

We can help Iwrin with the cost of his appeal by sending a donation to him at Freedom Books 544 E. Sahara Avenue Las Vegas, NV. 89104

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 6:57 PM  

Remember, the judge told Irwins'witnesses at one point that anything they said could be held against them! I firmly believe the jury felt very threatened by the judge and irs if they didn't find him guilty. The judge was about the dirtiest I've ever heard of and the prosecution didn't have even a hint of a case. It was a very dumb jury and they could of done jury nulificastion if any had had any smarts or balls. So much for jury trials. The jury not allowed to hear all of the facts cannot make an informed dicision and I think juries are considered too dumb to be able to sort out all the facts if they are allowed to hear eveerything.

By Blogger Sharon, at 10/24/2005 7:00 PM  

"JUST SHOW US THE LAW. Sorry, I'm PISSED and hate this fricking gov & prejurdicial system.

Slave #643-74-9216"

Thanks for posting your Social Security Number. Can anyone say Identity Theft?

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:08 PM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

By Blogger Tax Free, at 10/24/2005 7:12 PM  

Quatloos!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:13 PM  

To reasonable guy

You said:"I keep telling you guys to get a plan to change the law if you don't like it.

So where's your plan?"


Well after 10+ years of Title 26 research of my own, here is an educated answer for you:

There is NO law that makes a state sovereign working independent of any government agency, not a resident of a U.S. territory (that means fed gov't territory) and not contracting to the fed gov't. liable for a Title 26 Subtitle A Income Tax. PERIOD!

I dare you to find it! Because I will lead you to two parties who wil give you over $150,000US if you can. But here's a heads-up - don't waste your time - it ISN'T THERE!
That doesn't stop the U.S. Mafia along with the abetment of the IRS from trying to string us up and shake us down.

They want the damn money just like the Sicilian Mafioso. There is no difference.

Title 26 works perfectly. It is NOT unconstitutional. Lawfully, we are neither blessed nor cursed because of the 16th amendment. But most Americans have allowed themselves to be treated as federal subjects as if they were actually federal citizens (see 14th Amendment) under the law, leaving the average American caught in the money draining trap now destroying the very fabric of our liberty and our country. Well, the average Americans ARE NOT federal subjects if only they would remove themselves from the TV long enough to figure that out! But they don't know any better I guess, they don't know the truth. And that is what the judges and the rest of the state and federal mobsters hope they never find out.

Until and unless we get amendments to states and the federal constitutions such as that which JAIL For Judges (http://jail4judges.org) proposes so that "We The People" can finally rein in our wayward and malfeasant judges at all levels assuring us fair and equitable trials and suits in the court(s), we will continue to be railroaded into prison as thousands already have been whether guilty or not. We will continue to see unbelievable acts by judges such as in the Simkanin and Schiff cases.

Finally, our freedoms will continue to dwindle until one day in the not-too-distant future, you and the other untrained, uneducated sheep will be loaded up at gun point and delivered up to a "freedom" camp near you. Bon Voyage, mon ami.

By Blogger Jim Paulson, at 10/24/2005 7:17 PM  

The term "useful idiots" has been attributed to Lenin, as a description of those mindless people in the West, who serve the needs of totalitarianism.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:19 PM  

Did you people ever think that maybe the government is right, and you really do owe income taxes? Maybe you're just interpreting the law incorrectly?

Of course, that would make you all feel incredibly stupid, so you automatically dismiss that possibility. Therefore it has to be a government conspiracy, right?

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:20 PM  

Anonymous said...
>PATRIOT WILL DISSENT<

Wow, that’ll show them.
I’m glad I woke up from this Kool Aid dilution. All you people do is complain and use theories that are baseless in law. You will never learn.

Hey I have a plan for you. Pay your taxes or leave the Country. Easy enough for you?

I have a plan for you. Give all your money to the gov. maybe then you will have the understanding????
God has a plan for you to! go to hell stright to hell!!

By Blogger Tax Free, at 10/24/2005 7:22 PM  

It's a sad day and the country is going down the toilet. The judge in this case is no different than the people that were in charge of the 9/11 investigation. They are intent on covering up the truth. The saddest thing of all however is the stupidity that is so universe in our country as to what is really going on behind the scenes. We deserve what we get.There could not have been more assaults on our constitutional rights than in this trail and still the jury with its head buried in the sand could not choose freedon over tyranny.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:22 PM  

Don't give the jury any credit, they are idiots, cowards; most probably are both..

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:23 PM  

Financial ruin is the only way to kill the beast.

File for everything you are ENTITLED to as a TAXPAYER. TAKE TAKE TAKE. Kill the beast by staving him to death.

By Blogger The Peon, at 10/24/2005 7:24 PM  

If the government would show the exact law spelling out the tax code with no room for misunderstanding it by the people, they would save themselves alot of trial time and money by printing it in every mag and newspaper every April 15th and everytime this issue reared it's head, making this all go away very easily for them. But, they don't, because thy can't

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:34 PM  

"""Did you people ever think that maybe the government is right, and you really do owe income taxes? Maybe you're just interpreting the law incorrectly?""""

Of course, many times...I for one have came to the realization a while back that anyone of average intelligence, with a little honest work and open mind can see, objectively, that the way the Fed Income Tax is applied to the average American is a scam of gigantic proportions. And the only way that the scam can work is by instilling fear and perpetual doubt in the minds of the unsuspecting; by hiding the truth while at the same time perpetuating the falsehood that the Federal Government is honest and doing its job to protect the law.

The problem for people like you is that now we know this is all a giant hoax and that the only way one may think it is a matter of interpretation of "law" is if you are either stupid or just criminal. Of course there is always the possibility that you may be both; a stupid criminal.....have you considered that?

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:39 PM  

tax free said:

"Larry Cohen is a THEM, a set up."

Could you elaborate on this?

Thank you.

By Blogger The Tarquin King, at 10/24/2005 7:40 PM  

"anyone of average intelligence, with a little honest work and open mind can see, objectively, that the way the Fed Income Tax is applied to the average American is a scam of gigantic proportions."

Then why are nearly all tax protestors losers who hold menial jobs. You're talking about the pro wrasslin' crowd, not the Harvard debating society.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:43 PM  

You should all pickup the book Power Vs. Force.

Nations, organizations, individuals that rely on force always fall eventually.

But nations, organizations, individuals that are based in fundamental principles of power (liberty, freedom, do to others as you would have done to you, protection of the helpless etc.) will last.

Sure there may be times when force rears its ugly head...but the pendulum always shifts back.

Nothing is so great as an idea whose time has come.

Situations are developing that will make is soon impossible for tax structures and organizations based in force (such as the IRS) to exist...

The internet for one...the free flow of exchange of ideas...

And the ever increasing free-flow of capital across borders. Nations are now being forced to compete for other nations for this capital flow. That is a very good thing for us. That means they are forced to adopt tax structures that make them competitive globally.

This is why you are seeing the flat tax, and major tax reform sweeping across Europe.

We had better WAKE UP! Because if we don’t we’ll be left in the dust, playing catch up.

The best solution on the plate I feel right now is the Fair Tax. Check it out at...

Fairtax.org

While those force-based organizations may feel this verdict is a win, in my gut I feel that this is the point of no return (both for them and us). It’s the “straw the broke the camels back”. We have reached an intolerable point for the majority of American’s.

We have tasted freedom. We will have it again. However, just like our Founding Fathers before us, we must be willing to put it all on the line to get it. Think about it, if everybody rose up today and said, “enough is enough. We’re not going to be part of this anymore”...then they would have to stop this insanity.

I for one am no longer going to take it any longer. I for one am no longer going to report to the IRS and sign my name to a document that I in no way can possible know if it abides by the tax code or not...then wonder all year if a mistake was unknowingly made.

The tax code is larger then 12 bibles. No CPA can figure it all out...let alone your average American. The IRS themselves can't figure it out. They are not legally bound by the advice they give you!!!

I am an honest American...happy to pay my taxes. Defrauding the system is not the answer (as this prior post suggested). Force never wins against force. But the government has created a system that is impossible for honest American’s to abide by.

They have made criminals out of us all. They have made it a crime to make money and add value to your fellow human beings.

However, just like my mentors before me (the Founding Fathers, Jesus of Nazareth, and Ghandi), I must be willing to give me life for the very cause I believe in...let alone risk the chance of imprisonment.

Well, my fellow Americans, this verdict has caused me to reach that point. I will no longer be a willing party to this system.

I know that I will never get a fair quart case in any tax trial. So be it!

...I fully am aware of the risk I’m taking, but I’m willing to go to jail for this...I am willing to be imprisoned and perhaps give my life so that my children can be free again.

To the IRS...whatever I have, take it. I am not attached to things. You want to imprison me...So be it! But don’t ask me to sign my name to a document to be true and correct to your tax code when I can’t possibly know if that is the case of not.

Don’t ask me to be a willing party to your corrupt system.

In the end, “things” don’t matter. Your good name, your character is what matters! And what is your good name worth? Next time you think about signing that document think about what your good name is worth?

If all of you out there are not willing to sacrifice your money, possessions, etc. for your freedom then you don’t deserve freedom. I don’t say that as an insult, but a call to action.

Nothing is so strong as an idea who’s time has come. It’s now or never.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:44 PM  

"""Did you people ever think that maybe the government is right, and you really do owe income taxes? Maybe you're just interpreting the law incorrectly?""""
ANON 8:39

And you smart person, never answered my question posted often asking for the "PRIVILEGE" that the income tax is imposed upon. CRS explained it that way, Congress explains it that way, the Supreme Court explains it that way
AND YOU FAILED TO ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Have you ever considered that you don't know the answer?

ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION OR SHUT UP. CJ

By Anonymous cj, at 10/24/2005 7:44 PM  

CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE by fellow Americans.

The system can only exist with you cooperation!!!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:47 PM  

To anonymous posting 10/24/2005 8:20 PM

Ok, show us where we are wrong! And why you are right. Show us why the supreme court cases we present (that federal judges are bound by) are incorrect as to why the Fed Income Tax is constitutional.

Please, by all means, disprove Mr. Schiff! This is your chance! Tell us and provide the document that the IRS has delagated authority given to them by the Secretery of the Treasury when it comes to income tax. And show us where it is published for the public to see!

By all means. We the people are asking the questions! Please share with us! You are the government, and should be able to give us answers as to why we are in fact compelled to pay and file income taxes.

Think about it! If you don't give answers, and just say "pay or else!" Then would you expect the people to comply with the IRS? Answer this question as well please. If you say yes to this question, then you truely support totalitarianism.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:47 PM  

Mr Anonymous said he wants us all to join him

Did you people ever think that maybe the government is right, and you really do owe income taxes? Maybe you're just interpreting the law incorrectly?

Of course, that would make you all feel incredibly stupid, so you automatically dismiss that possibility. Therefore it has to be a government conspiracy, right?

10/24/2005 8:20 PM

OK
Lets pay his taxes but take back more than we give. Let us starve him with with no gross national product for a week or two. Lets show the beast who is in charge.

By Blogger The Peon, at 10/24/2005 7:48 PM  

"Anonymous said...
Did you people ever think that maybe the government is right, and you really do owe income taxes? Maybe you're just interpreting the law incorrectly?

Of course, that would make you all feel incredibly stupid, so you automatically dismiss that possibility. Therefore it has to be a government conspiracy, right?"

10/24/2005 8:20 PM

YOU NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION AS TO THE PRIVILEGE THAT IS BEING TAXES AS PER CRS AND CONGRESS AND THE SUPREME COURT. WHY, SINCE YOU KNOW SO MUCH DIDN'T YOU I.D. THE PRIVILEGE? YOU DON'T KNOW THAT'S WHY. CJ

By Anonymous CJ, at 10/24/2005 7:50 PM  

Schiff only has a few dozen serious supporters, and then maybe a few hundred half-hearted supporters nationwide.

If you go out on strike, it will only mean that a few people nationwide will have delays in getting their brake pads replaced.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:51 PM  

"Then why are nearly all tax protestors losers who hold menial jobs. You're talking about the pro wrasslin' crowd, not the Harvard debating society."

IT'S OBVIOUSLY TIME TO START IGNORING THESE PEOPLE WHO STANDS FOR CORRUPTION AND DISHONESTY IN GOVERNMENT. THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT FOR THE CONSTITUTION. FROM NOW ON, I AM GOING TO IGNORE ALL YOUR COMMENTS.

-T.G.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 7:58 PM  

*Then why are nearly all tax protestors losers who hold menial jobs. You're talking about the pro wrasslin' crowd, not the Harvard debating society.*

There are no tax protestors here. Only those honest and courageous enough to oppose a hoax when they see one. Honesty is the only requirement. Honesty to the full extent of one's intelligence however wide.

By Anonymous ed, at 10/24/2005 7:59 PM  

CJ said, "YOU NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION AS TO THE PRIVILEGE THAT IS BEING TAXES AS PER CRS AND CONGRESS AND THE SUPREME COURT. WHY, SINCE YOU KNOW SO MUCH DIDN'T YOU I.D. THE PRIVILEGE? YOU DON'T KNOW THAT'S WHY. CJ "

I'd say this is a fine example of you misinterpreting the law. No privelege is required for income taxes to apply. If you earn income, you owe taxes. It's that simple.

P.S. You never asked me any questions, so don't have a hissy fit claiming I never answered them. Or did you think all "anonymous" posters were the same person?

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:06 PM  

Hello Jerry Hosteg here,

True! I never had faith in this jury. At least Mr. Irwin will die knowing that he fought, and will never give in. It takes strength to do that! Strength that is hard to come by in people. Mr. Irwin, you fought a good fight, and I you have my respect!

-Peace, Mr. Irwin.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:06 PM  

I hope he can get this reversed on appeals. The judge was clearly biased.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:07 PM  

The income tax was never about money. It was always about control.

Doesn’t it trouble you that establishing a graduated income tax is a tenant of the communist manifesto!!

How long are we going to willingly let this madness continue? I for one am not going to be part of it any longer.

You can argue all day whether there is legal authority for the IRS to do what they do. To me that is irrelevant.

What about the moral authority!

If the law legally obligated you to keep slaves would you obey it? I hope not. Think about that next time you "obedient Americans" are so willing to obey laws you find morally wrong.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:11 PM  

I have asked this question to Schiff and several other people before. How do you ever expect to get a fair trail in a very corrupt court system like we have? This judge Dawson should be the one going to prison.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:14 PM  

===============================
The Ultimate Test & Solution
===============================
Let the taxes be voluntary.

And when that happens, when the taxes are voluntary, then the "anti-freedom/pro-tax" crowd will become the world’s BIGGEST HYPOCRITES because THEY will no longer want to pay taxes since no one else is paying.

Hey CJ… The Government is wrong because the LAW does not support what the Government claims! PERIOD! However, the LAW does support what Irwin claims! PERIOD!

Maybe that’s why the court degraded itself and acted like a NAZI court and denied Irwin a fair trial with due process, permissible evidence and good jurisprudence.

Did you ever stop to think about “why” the court would deny the jury the LAW, and deny Irwin the right to bring in evidence and witnesses- like former FBI agents that would support him???

Again, the “anti-freedom” crowd is demonstrating their total lack of ability to connect the dots, to grasp the gravity of the situation, or to recognize the FRAUD that just occurred.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:22 PM  

People can you not remember the gubment saying that they will answer our questions with enforcement??? Why are you all suprised?
they wanted to shut him up and they did! Irwin and the others will get the same in their appeal as well. IRS,DOJ,and the federal courts will not admit they are wrong. What the Hell are you thinking when you think they will give "TP's" a fair trial?
They earn their living from you!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:25 PM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:26 PM  

I think it's time for Schiff to admit he was wrong.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:27 PM  

"What about the moral authority!"

Anon, 9:11 pm...

This is a very good point...many German soldiers justified their actions in WWII because they had the legal authority under German law to defend themselves. However, they did not have the moral authority for their actions which was later to defeat them in the Nuremberg Trials.

The same can be said today...the U.S. Gvt, even with the law (if it exists), to collect income taxes may have legal authority, but it does not have moral authority. There will be a day soon when Amerika has its Nuremberg Trials on the income tax issue.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:34 PM  

PROFESSIONAL TAX RESISTER IRWIN SCHIFF AND TWO ASSOCIATES CONVICTED IN LAS VEGAS TAX SCAM

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE – TAX -- MONDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2005 (202) 514-2007 WWW.USDOJ.GOV TDD (202) 514-1888

PROFESSIONAL TAX RESISTER IRWIN SCHIFF AND TWO ASSOCIATES CONVICTED IN LAS VEGAS TAX SCAM

WASHINGTON, D.C. - A federal jury in Las Vegas, Nevada convicted Irwin Schiff and two associates, Cynthia Neun and Lawrence Cohen, of aiding and assisting in the preparation of false income tax returns filed by other taxpayers in connection with a tax scam, and convicted Schiff and Neun of conspiring to defraud the United States, the Department of Justice and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) announced today. Schiff was convicted on all counts, including income tax evasion and of filing false income tax returns for the years 1997 through 2002, and Neun was convicted of willfully failing to file federal income tax returns, Social Security disability fraud, and theft of government property in connection with Neun's improper receipt of Social Security disability benefits.

According to the indictment and the evidence introduced at trial, beginning in 1995, the defendants directed thousands of taxpayers to file false federal income tax returns with the IRS that reported zero taxable income in spite of the taxpayers earning large amounts of reportable income. The defendants operated the scam through Freedom Books-a business owned by Schiff-that sold books, tapes, and packets encouraging customers not to pay income tax. According to a government witness who testified at trial, between 1997 and 2002 Freedom Books sold more than $4.2 million in products that promoted Schiff's "anti-tax" scheme.

"People who evade their tax obligations, or encourage or enable others to do so, are cheating all law-abiding taxpayers," said Eileen J. O'Connor, Assistant Attorney General for the Justice Department's Tax Division. "The Department of Justice will prosecute these crimes, and juries will convict the offenders."

The Justice Department filed a civil suit in the same court against Schiff, Neun, and Cohen in March 2003, and the court granted a temporary restraining order barring them from advertising or selling Schiff's "zero-income tax return" plan; preparing tax returns for others; and assisting others to violate the tax law, including by "selling services, books or other materials that provide direction about how to fill out fraudulent or false tax forms. . . ." The preliminary injunction was affirmed after the defendants' appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. The U.S. Supreme Court this month declined to hear Schiff's challenge to the Ninth Circuit decision. The Justice Department will ask the district court to convert the preliminary injunction into a permanent one. More information about the injunction may be found on the Tax Division website at http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/txdv03357.htm < http://www.usdoj.gov/ta/txdv03357.htm> and < http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/txdv03167.htm>.

The evidence presented at trial also proved that Schiff evaded the payment of more than $2 million in taxes he owed the IRS from 1979 through 1985. Schiff concealed income he earned from Freedom Books, in part by using offshore bank accounts and conducting financial transactions through secret "warehouse" banking services. The evidence also showed that Schiff used debit cards issued by offshore banks to obtain funds he transferred offshore, that he opened bank accounts using multiple tax identification numbers, and that he titled his ownership of a car in the name of a Pennsylvania corporation.

This marks the third time Schiff has been convicted of tax offenses. "Paying taxes is the price of citizenship. After three strikes, I would hope that even Mr. Schiff realizes that he has struck out," said IRS Commissioner Mark W. Everson.

Mr. Schiff-who faces a maximum sentence of 43 years in prison and $3.25 million in fines-was remanded to the custody of the U.S. Marshals Service and is scheduled to be sentenced on January 20, 2006 at 10:30 A.M. Ms. Neun-who faces up to 50 years in prison and up to $3.3 million in fines-was remanded pending a bail hearing tomorrow. Neun's sentencing is scheduled for January 27, 2006 at 9:00 A.M. Mr. Cohen-who was released on bond-is due to be sentenced on January 27, 2006 at 9:30 A.M. He faces three years incarceration and up to a $250,000 fine.

Assistant Attorney General O'Connor thanked Tax Division Trial Attorneys Jeffrey A. Neiman and David J. Ignall, who prosecuted the case, as well as the Special Agents of the IRS, other Tax Division Attorneys, and the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Nevada for their assistance during the investigation and trial of this matter.

###

05-548

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:36 PM  

Why should Schiff admit he was wrong when he was not????

Why don't the "anti-freedom/pro-tax" people admit that the LAW does not support what the Government says it does. In fact, the Government even refused to claim that the LAW mandates a liability!

Why should Schiff admit he is wrong when he is only guilty of standing up for what is right, and trying to correct a HUGE mistake that has really hurt this country?

Why would any of you people demand he admit he is wrong, when non of you can even show us the LAW that makes us LIABLE?

Get real! The true FRAUD here is that the court supressed evidence, and all ethics governing jurisprudence, and then would not even give the jury the LAW when they asked for it.

You "anti-freedom/pro-tax" people need to re-think your position. I bet if we lived in Nazi Germany during WWII, you would be barking at us for disagreeing with Hitler!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:39 PM  

Dumb A$$ Arrogant Anonymous said:

***************:

Anonymous said:
"anyone of average intelligence, with a little honest work and open mind can see, objectively, that the way the Fed Income Tax is applied to the average American is a scam of gigantic proportions."

Then why are nearly all tax protestors losers who hold menial jobs. You're talking about the pro wrasslin' crowd, not the Harvard debating society.

10/24/2005 8:43 PM

***************:

The post referred to "anyone of average intelligence", not to those highly intelligent, glib, and sophistic members of the Harvard Debating Society who, apparently don't have a fraction of the courage of Irwin Schiff. Yak, yak, yak, risk nothing, and accomplish nothing of value in the end. Truly admirable.

Don't bother posting a reply saying that becasue he was found guilty of mutliple counts that Irwin Schiff has accomplished nothing. He has indeed accomplished much. If do not, cannot, or will not acknowledge it, then just go back to your cozy little debating room and yak, yak, yak sme more.

By Anonymous HK, at 10/24/2005 8:46 PM  

This tells me how deep the cancer is in our Judicial system. We now know there is no justice to be had with Judges like sullivan. Who do we fight now, and how? I am so upset but maybe this is what we need, justifiable anger to change things. All we need is a leader with a brave heart to lead us back to the truth. How many Feds were in the jury? How could anyone watch the unfair treatment of Mr. Schiff and still vote guilty? God help me, I am so shocked. Marzella

By Anonymous marzella, at 10/24/2005 8:47 PM  

Some one worte "Quit drinking the koolaid. The government put on a month-and-a-half worth of evidence, and all the defendants together only put on one day of evidence, and most of that were worthless character witnesses."

This person is clueless as to what actually happened. Irwin Schiff tried to call many witnessess, including five lawyers, two ex-IRS agents and an ex-FBI agent, all of whom would have testified that they could find no law requiring the payment of incomce taxes. Mr. Schiff also tried to call a government hired psychiatrist, who would have testified that in his professional opinion Mr, Schiff held a sincere belief that he was under no legal obligation to pay income taxes. In fact, according to this government hired psychiatrist, Mr. Schiff held his beleifs so strongly that nothing could have caused him to change his mind. The judge refused to allow this witness to testify, claiming any such testimony would be irrelevent! What could be more relevent in a case centering on a defendent's good faith belief then the expert testimony of a psychiatrist hired by the prosecution, substantiating the defendent's good faith defense?

The reason the defense had so few witnessses is that the Judge did not allow any of them to testify, other than as character witnesess.

As far as the governemnt's witnesss, not a single one of them testified that Mr. Schiff beleived that he was legally required to pay income taxes, or cited any section of the IR Code that required the payment of income taxes, filing of inocme tax returns, or provided for the creation of a an income tax liabilty.

In short, though the governmtn had many witnesses, which Mr. Schiff was not allowed to cross-examine, those witnessess did not even provide one legitimate shred of evidence upon which a lawfull ocnviction could have been based.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:48 PM  

As long as "income" is the basis for establishing the tax, all property belongs to the government. There is no constitution, no bill of rights, and no declaration of independence. The more money you have to donate to your elected representatives, the more favorable tax treatment you can purchase in the code. Read Karl Marx communist manifesto. It is the basis for the American Income Tax System. Our forefathers never envisioned a tax on income. Some billionaires according to David Cay Johnston, author of the book "Perfectly Legal" have never filed a tax return. You are paying their taxes. The rich are very well connected. The last thing on earth that they want is a tax on consumption. They own vast amounts of stock in the big retail companies that would collect the sales tax. Many of them are among the 40,000 tax lobbyists on K street in Washington D.C. They have influenced the retailers into opposing the consumption tax even though the retailers already collect sales tax. Don't you think it would be nice to receive your total paycheck and you decide how much tax you wish to pay? Don't you think the 1.6 trillion dollar underground, illegal economy should be taxed? Don't you think the 11 trillion dollars stored in offshore banks should come home tax free to be used to jump start our economy? Don't you believe every American family should receive a prebate instead of having the present master/slave relationship with our government and class warfare since the poor have to pay the rich peoples taxes, and it is the poor who get the most audits. 100 of the largest companies have stated that they will build their next plant in the U.S. if we go to the consumption tax. Those who oppose the consumption tax are some CPA's, the tax lobbyists, the IRS, tax lawyers, Federal judges and some U.S. Attorneys. Are these not the main ones we oppose, along with some of our elected officials who are sucking on that money tit.
There is never going to be a perfect tax system for everyone. But, the 3.4 million words in the present system favor someone at someone elses expense.
It is time for all of us who see the gross injustice that is going on to demand a more fair system. As long as there is an IRS we will always be slaves. Think long and hard about it for our children and grandchildren's sake.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 8:56 PM  

TO: Anonymous 10/24/2005 9:06 PM

THANK YOU SO VERY VERY MUCH...YOU BIT BUT YOU WON'T ANSWER. PROVE ME WRONG AND ANSWER BEFORE YOU MAKE YOUR BIG MOUTH CLAIM. DO IT!

SEE BELOW

CJ said, "YOU NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION AS TO THE PRIVILEGE THAT IS BEING TAXES AS PER CRS AND CONGRESS AND THE SUPREME COURT. WHY, SINCE YOU KNOW SO MUCH DIDN'T YOU I.D. THE PRIVILEGE? YOU DON'T KNOW THAT'S WHY. CJ "

I'd say this is a fine example of you misinterpreting the law. No privelege is required for income taxes to apply. If you earn income, you owe taxes. It's that simple.

P.S. You never asked me any questions, so don't have a hissy fit claiming I never answered them. Or did you think all "anonymous" posters were the same person?

I HAVE ASKED EVERYONE THAT INCLUDES YOU!

****READY

INCOME IS NOT THE SUBJECT MATTTER OF THE TAX!

-The language in 26 USC 1 states, “There is hereby imposed on the taxable income of every married individual, every head of household, etc…”
Taxable income is the subject matter of the above sentence, but it IS NOT and can NOT be the subject matter of 26 USC 1 taxation, since INCOME is only the MEASURE of the tax, and NOT the subject matter of the tax and income cannot include inalienable rights excluded by law from taxation.
- Individual is NOT and cannot be the subject matter of 26USC1 taxation on taxable income since capitation taxes are direct taxes and subject to the rule of apportionment.
- Property, real or personal, in NOT and can NOT be the subject matter of 26USC1 taxation since property taxes are direct taxes and subject to the rule of apportionment.
- The common business callings of life, the property which every man has is own labor is NOT and can NOT be the subject matter of taxation since inalienable rights of contract, our labor being our property, and the fruits thereof our property are excluded by law from being tax and would also be subject to apportionment or capitation.

No section of the Code IMPOSES a tax on everyday normal activities.

The Supreme Court, not a US DISTRICT COURT, has ruled in a minimum of 15 decisions that the word income as set forth in all of the income tax acts of congress, has the same definition or meaning that was given IT in the corporation Excise Tax Act of 1909.

Subject matter can confuse one so let’s see what the Congressional Research Service said, ya know the very CRS the prosecution uses…
The 1980 CRS report made the following statement concerning the nature of the income tax:
“Therefore, it can be clearly determined from the decisions of the United States Supreme Court that the income tax is an indirect tax, generally in the nature of an excise tax.”
In 1989, the revised and updated their report:
What does the court mean when it states that
the income tax is in the nature of an excise tax?
“An excise tax is a tax levied on the manufacture, sale, or consumption of a commodity or any various taxes on privileges often assessed in the form of a license or fee. In other words, it is a tax on doing something to property or on the privilege of holding some property or doing some act, not a tax on the property itself. The tax is not on the property directly, but rather it is a tax on the transaction.”
“When a court refers to an income tax as being in the nature of an excise, it is merely stating that the tax is not on the property itself.”
So now we ALL KNOW and MUST AGREE that the federal income tax is not a tax on income right? It is a privilege tax measured by income! Congress is taxing some government-defined privilege and income is merely the measuring stick to determine the value of the privilege. Nowhere does CRS identify the so-called privilege that is the basis for the income tax.
Now that we agree that income tax is an excise or privilege tax, then what’s the privilege? This “privilege” must be one of the most closely guarded secrets in American history. Neither the Internal Revenue Service nor members of Congress NOR THE COURT will identify the privilege.
Let’s see what Congress said, after all they wrote it – and they clearly and concisely stated it: In 1943, an analysis of the federal income tax was published in the Congressional Record. “The income tax is, therefore, not a tax on income as such. It is an excise tax with respect to certain activities and privileges, which is measured by the income they produce. The income is not the subject of the tax: it is the basis for determining the amount of the tax.” The fore stated excerpt of information was written by a former legislative draftsman in the Treasury Department and titled, “The Income Tax is an Excise Tax, and Income is Merely the Basis for determining its Amount.”
So there you have it. The question before you is: Name the Privilege that the individual personal 1040 income tax is upon as measured by the income produced from that privilege and do so with cite from 1. court case, 2. IRS, 3. Department of Treasury, 4. Congress!

NOW BIG MOUTH - YOU SAID THAT I MISINTERPRETED THE LAW AND THAT THERE IS NO PRIVILEGE REQUIRED! YOU SAID IT BIG MOUTH. PUT YOUR BRAIN WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS OR IS YOUR BRAIN LOCATED AT A DIFFERENT ORIFICE!

CONGRESS WROTE THE DAMN THING AND YOU SAY IT ISN'T SO???

NAME THE F'IN PRIVILEGE AS STATED BY THEM.

ANSWER THE F'IN QUESTION

THAT IS THE ONLY QUESTION
GET IT
CJ

NOW DO IT OR EAT IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, YOU WON'T SLEEP OR REST FOR IT WILL TORMENT YOU TILL YOU DIE AND MAYBE AFTER.

CJ ANSWER THE QUESTION CJ

By Anonymous CJ, at 10/24/2005 9:03 PM  

Is there no conferace call tonight?

By Blogger We the Constitutionalists, at 10/24/2005 9:06 PM  

Hey there Anonymous 10/24/2005 9:27 PM wherein you said...

"I think it's time for Schiff to admit he was wrong."

If true, why don't you answer the Damn question posted 10:03pm

Now is your chance or you will never sleep well, be tormented the rest of your life and die a coward and a liar.

Answer the f'in question, what's the privilege? CJ

By Anonymous cj, at 10/24/2005 9:10 PM  

CJ,

How's that plan coming to change the law?

By Anonymous Reasonable Guy, at 10/24/2005 9:12 PM  

I grow so weary of my fellow man that hides behind the government and acts the same as they.

I don't have government but they wont answer my question and neither will any of you!

You jump on the blogs as though your filled with knowledge and tuff talk yet you can't answer a simple question? You instead avoid, talk crap, trash your fellow man and then go to church on Sunday.

Tormented souls are you! CJ

By Anonymous cj, at 10/24/2005 9:13 PM  

Hey CJ,

As far as your questions, I don't think I was the intended "anonymous" writer, but I will say this based on what I know...

If the income tax is a measure of an ACTIVITY or PRIVILEDGE, then the tax law makes no sense at all, because, our right to work is not an ACTIVITY or PRIVILEDGE that is created by Government action. Our right to work is- if you are Christian- something that comes from God and is protected under the various parts of the constitution. Our right to earn a living came before the Country was founded- for sure!

Does that make sense? A man's work is something from the days of old, it is Biblical, and can be described as spiritual in nature.

Court Cases:
=============
Murdock v. Penn., 319 US 105
“No state shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and attach a fee to it.”


Shuttlesworth v. Birmingham, 373 US 262
“If the state converts a liberty into a privilege, the citizen can engage in the right with impunity.”

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 9:28 PM  

My problem with Irwin getting an appeal is the fact he's 77 !! They'll drag their ass as long as possible scheduling his appeal hoping he'll pass away first !! Dick Simkanin's appeal took some 3 years to be heard, if the same happens here I don't know if Irwin would be up to the fight at 80 !! That's EXACTLY what the gov't is hoping for !! That their "huge pain in the ass tax law tell it like it is mouthpiece" will pass away in prison before his appeal would ever come up !! I just saw on Scarborough Country on MSNBC that the suspected leak in the CIA agent deal MAY BE CHENEY !! Hopefully some of the #**!!@ crooks will be drug outta the White House on their asses soon !! I know one Patriot that was taken away to prison unjustly today in a rigged kangaroo court !! That Patriot's name was Irwin Schiff !!!!!!!!!!

By Anonymous D E from NC, at 10/24/2005 9:28 PM  

LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE! YEAH RIGHT, MORE LIKE THE LAND OF THE LAZY AND THE HOME OF THE STUPID.
AMERICANS DONT DESERVE THEIR FREEDOM ANYMORE. THE FEW THAT SPEAK UP FOR THE EVEN FEWER THAT STAND ARE LAUGHED AT AND MOCKED AND CALLED NAMES.
WHERES STALIN WHEN YOU NEED HIM. IF ITS GONNA HAPPEN IT MIGHT AS WELL HAPPEN FAST. I WISH THEY WOULD STOP ACTING AS THERE STILL IS A CONSTITUTION. AND LETS GET IT OVER WITH. WE DAMN SURE WONT FIND ENOUGH REAL AMERICANS ANYMORE...

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 9:32 PM  

Wow! What a stupid jury! I'm serious you got to be the dumbest people in the world to have asked to see the code and be denied that request, and not get what Irwin is trying to say all along. That the government is not answering. That the government is hiding. Jeeze!

I'd prefer to be on trial with children as the jury members. LOL!

In my situation, I've never filed a 1040, and never plan to. If the IRS wants to come after me, and force me to fill out a 1040, I'm not going to do so under any circumstance (not even for a court order - which would be illegal anyway).

Hmmm. I now see how bad America got. This is serious! It might be too late to fix the problem though. It has to start by throwing into prison, the federal judges, U.S. attorneys, IRS agents and their superiors, The IRS Commissioner, and the Secretery of the Treasury.

I say the Secretery of the Treasury because he's allowing the IRS to get away with illegal activity. And since he is the one responsible for delegating authority to the IRS, then he is responsible for their actions too!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 10:06 PM  

"Paying taxes is the price of citizenship. After three strikes, I would hope that even Schiff realizes that he has struck out," said IRS Commissioner Mark W. Everson.

Gag Me With A Spoon.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=55524

I hope he wins on appeal !

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 10:10 PM  

"Take all the robes of all the good judges that have ever lived on the face of the earth, and they would not be large enough to cover the iniquity of one corrupt judge"


Henry Ward Beecher, Proverbs from Plymouth Pulpit(1887)

By Anonymous JUSTICE DENIED!, at 10/24/2005 10:19 PM  

Hello, Anon. 10:28 pm
You write with great care and I appreciate that. As stated I grow weary and thus I've lost my cool, but losing one's cool is not as bad as losing one's soul as those that scream opinions without being able to back them.

I'd like to say that the issue isn't "IF" as you began your second paragraph with "if" for me because either congress, CRS and the Supremes are wrong or they are correct. *If they are wrong what are we to do?* I am not a conspiracy type person for I seek fact, evidence and verification.
It would seem that CRS says it, congress says it and the Supremes say it so that is enough verification for me, and I would hope for EVERYONE!

Sadly not everyone values the word of Congress, the Supremes and the CRS for they say it's wrong! But should I listen to them or the ones who wrote the law and have adjudicated the law.

Your case cites are spot on, and there are many more.

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."
Thomas Jefferson

"Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government."
Thomas Jefferson

CJ

By Anonymous cj, at 10/24/2005 10:25 PM  

"Paying taxes is the price of citizenship. After three strikes, I would hope that even Schiff realizes that he has struck out," said IRS Commissioner Mark W. Everson.

There you have it folks. Finally the answer. The privilege is "citizenship"

You are being taxed for the activity of citizenship. Your PRIZE! Funny all those people that came before us were not taxed for being citizens. Did something change? OUR CITIZENSHIP STATUS MAYBE? THINK ABOUT IT. CJ

By Anonymous CJ, at 10/24/2005 10:28 PM  

"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
Thomas Jefferson

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 10:30 PM  

Let's look at this logically for a moment. There are two possible explanations as to why every single court case has upheld the validity of the income tax:

A) The income tax is valid, or...

B) Every court in the land is part of a giant conspiracy to make us THINK the income tax is valid, and they jail anyone who disagrees for attempting to expose the conspiracy.

Unless you're on drugs or a former writer for The X-Files (or both), it's logical to conclude that A) is correct.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 10:32 PM  

CJ wrote, "You are being taxed for the activity of citizenship. Your PRIZE! Funny all those people that came before us were not taxed for being citizens. Did something change? "


Yes, Congress enacted the income tax. Duh.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 10:34 PM  

P.S. I sleep just fine. I'll sleep even better when that scofflaw Irwin Schiff is behind bars.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 10:40 PM  

The Secretary of the Treasury has clearly recognized that certain sources of income ARE EXCLUDED from income or any taxation in regulation 26 C.F.R. 1.61-1, to wit: "Gross income means all income from whatever source derived, UNLESS EXCLUDED BY LAW..."

NEW QUESTION: WHAT INCOME IS EXCLUDED BY LAW???? CJ

By Anonymous CJ, at 10/24/2005 10:44 PM  

Anonymous 11:32 pm wrote, Let's look at this logically for a moment. There are two possible explanations as to why every single court case has upheld the validity of the income tax:

A) The income tax is valid, or...

B) Every court in the land is part of a giant conspiracy to make us THINK the income tax is valid, and they jail anyone who disagrees for attempting to expose the conspiracy.

Unless you're on drugs or a former writer for The X-Files (or both), it's logical to conclude that A) is correct.


Expecting the TP's to think in a logical manner is like expecting the Cubs and the Devil Rays to be in next year's World Series. By the way, those who buy into (b) must also believe that every law professor, attorney, CPA, and reporter is in on the conspiracy, too.

"I thought at first that the power of taxation [given in the new Federal Constitution] might have been limited. A little reflection soon convinced me it ought not to be." -- Thomas Jefferson

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 10:46 PM  

CJ asks, "NEW QUESTION: WHAT INCOME IS EXCLUDED BY LAW????"

Most life insurance proceeds; gifts; most interest on state and local obligations; employer-paid health insurance; etc.

It's all spelled out in the Code -- just read it.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 10:50 PM  

FIRST: It would be nice if all of the "Anonymous" commenters would use a little imagination and declare a name so one can be discerned from the other.

SECOND: To All Who Think The Government Is Right: (A) Let's see the law that makes it a privilege for states Citizens to work freely in the private sector insofaras Title 26 USC is concerned, (B) The law that creates an income tax liability for those working in the private sector insofaras Title 26 USC, (C) Proof that the government attorneys, judges and IRS employees are not selling you a ruse.

You all can't show the LAW nor can or will the government do it. Rather the gov will use force up to and including murder to shut you up - see Schiff case as an example. And some of you want me and others who know the truth to pay them anyway? Wow, I'll try to figure out the sanity and wisdom in that line of thinking. Oh, did you mean volunteer to pay? But I'm not going to slump over and just pay some bill I don't owe including a Subtitle A Income Tax. PERIOD.

By Blogger Jim Paulson, at 10/24/2005 10:52 PM  

Government stated the law Section 1 imposes the tax. Now go get a Blacks Law disctionary and look up the word Imposed.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 10:55 PM  

Reasonable Guy said...
CJ,

How's that plan coming to change the law?

10/24/2005 10:12 PM
***************************

I forgot, you haven't got one. All you have are frivolous arguments and nonsense.

By Anonymous Reasonable Guy, at 10/24/2005 11:01 PM  

Think about this. In one case, with Mr. Schiff out of jail but not paying income taxes, the economy at least benefits from reading Schiff's insights into the law (even if you disagree with them, they are at least another view). But now we have put him behind bars. Guess what, he still won't be paying any taxes, but now he'll be using ours (or those dumb enough, brainwashed enough, or ballless enough to pay them). This is an example of how hideous the income tax is from an economic standpoint. I find myself minimizing my labor so as not to be a slave to our gov't (which also, by the way, happens to be killing & robbing good folks across the globe, an other reason not to pay). And because of gov't-induced sloth, Uncle Sam & I are on good terms in one direction, at least--the direction that matters most in practice but least in theory. But Schiff, for working his ass off to back his theories and providing a new & strong idea into the marketplace, an idea whose worth can be measured by its influence on others which can be in turn measured by total sales which can be in turn measured by taxes supposedly owed to the US gov't & hence new enough & strong enough to merit prosecution, is removed of his liberties merely because he chose work over sloth. It is so ironic to me that Uncle Sam chose to increase the real tax burden of us other citizens, taking actions which provide no real benefit to anyone, in order, as they would say, to protect the good tax citizens. No, it is only to protect themselves. They have turned us against ourselves so that they can rule the world for a brief moment by taxing the most rich nation ever yet to exist into the dirt which, when that horrible day comes, will not even be owned by we who walk on it.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 11:02 PM  

Why didn't you answer my question anon.11:32?

You call Irwin as one who scorns the tax yet he clearly asked without being answered prior to his conviction.

I never said the income tax is not "valid." Irwin always said it was even Constitutional... sounds "valid" to me.

So Why do you find it necessary to alter and change words and meanings in attempt to be, as you say LOGICAL?

Why not be truly "logical" show your stuff and answer my question?
OR answer what income is EXCLUDED as per my other question posted? (either its included or its excluded) What income is excluded?

"He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors."
Thomas Jefferson

"The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it."
Thomas Jefferson

Might the second quote above identify you as a child anon.?

Answer the question.
Your beloved Commissioner seems to have when saying, "Paying taxes is the price of citizenship." So is "citizenship" now a privilege bestowed upon you and taxed by government? Is your taxable activity your existance based on your citizenship?

Doesn't that bother you or anyone else? Born an American you have "rights" and those rights have been stolen and converted into a privilege that only government can bestow upon you.

Is it Creator - Man - Government
You were taught that in school -
OR
Government - Man - Creator
as is the case now.

I don't care for the second flow chart. What changed? Americans born before us had rights and now we have only a taxable privilege to exist?

What say you logical anon.
CJ

By Anonymous cj, at 10/24/2005 11:10 PM  

By the way, those who buy into (b) must also believe that every law professor, attorney, CPA, and reporter is in on the conspiracy, too.

Since the code is written in a 10,000 page complex and confusing maze, it's quite easy to see how those with vested interests (gov and legal community) can perpetaute the fraud for so long. Is it a huge conspiracy? Not really. It's more a group-following thing, because to be a conspiracy requires knowledge of the real truth. Most in the legal professions don't know the real truth and really, how can they? They are 'taught' what the truth (false) is from day one of their profession!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 11:10 PM  

EXCELLENT ANONYMOUS POSTED 12:02 AM
10/25

Well done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/24/2005 11:13 PM  

Anonymous, have heard that ruse several times. You miss the point. TITLE 26, Subtitle A, CHAPTER 1, Subchapter A, PART I, Sec. 1. imposes the tax. Now show us how the liability comes to be.

EXAMPLE:

Tobacco -
Section 5701 Imposition of tax on tobacco products
Section 5703 Liability for tax and method of payment

Alcohol -
Section 5001 Imposition, rate and attachment of tax
Section 5005 Persons liable for tax

Now find the liability tax for Subtitle A Income Tax....

Get it?

By Blogger Jim Paulson, at 10/24/2005 11:22 PM  

Anonymous said...
Government stated the law Section 1 imposes the tax. Now go get a Blacks Law disctionary and look up the word Imposed.

10/24/2005 11:55 PM

HERE'S A BRIGHT ONE ABOVE....

1. BLACK'S DICTIONARY IS NOT LAW.
2. THE TAX IS IMPOSED, YES, ON WHAT? ON A PRIVILEGE.
CITE THE PRIVILEGE?

Why would anyone post such drivel as Black's Law?

I quote Congress, CRS and the Supreme Court and you say to read Black's Law!

You don't even care that you are not what you think you are...that being an American. I mean that for real. CJ

By Anonymous cj, at 10/24/2005 11:58 PM  

I want to know what any of you think you're accomplishing by arguing with each other all day? You all remind me of my two dogs when they're outside. One pisses on a tree and the other one follows (over and over). Educated individuals shouldn't argue (you know which ones you are). Think about it, you people spend hours at your pc typing responses to people you've never met, and ignorant ones at that. It seems the knowledge some of you possess could be put to better use, or, you can just keep arguing with that invisible person in cyberspace!!!

By Anonymous da324, at 10/25/2005 12:32 AM  

jim paulson wrote, "EXAMPLE:

Tobacco -
Section 5701 Imposition of tax on tobacco products
Section 5703 Liability for tax and method of payment

Alcohol -
Section 5001 Imposition, rate and attachment of tax
Section 5005 Persons liable for tax

Now find the liability tax for Subtitle A Income Tax...."

That's it?!? That's your argument as to why you don't have to pay taxes? LOL!

First of all, there doesn't have to be a separate section making you "liable". Those sections exist for alcohol and tobacco because alcohol and tobacco cannot pay taxes on themselves. It must be spelled out who pays the tax on these things.

In the case of income tax, it's pretty clear that the person earning the income is the one liable for it. If it's not the earner of the income, then who is it?

By Anonymous schiffiswrong, at 10/25/2005 12:49 AM  

TAKE, TAKE, TAKE TAKE, TAKE, TAKE

GIMME GIMME GIMME

By Blogger The Peon, at 10/25/2005 1:13 AM  

200,000 new people on the DOLE

By Blogger The Peon, at 10/25/2005 1:22 AM  

Quote from anonymous:

"Is this the same Constitution that explicitly and unequivocally gives Congress the power to tax income?
"


End quote from anonymous.
-------

Now for my comment:

U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 10 (partial quote):

"No State shall...make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts..."

So what are we doing using paper (FIAT) money?

Is this the income that is being taxed?

To "anonymous": is this the Constitution that you mean?

Is this the Constitution that you refer to in your comment?

The one that "we" supposedly follow?

Get a clue. I would give you a Dollar Bill to buy one, but it's NOT CONSTITUTIONAL -- and of course you'd have to clam it as taxable income.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/25/2005 1:26 AM  

Pay a little TAKE ALOT. They can't print money for ever. Sooner or later it will have zero value. That is when we take our country back. Food Stamps up, 100 billon here, 50 billion there, 50 millon to earthquakes. 10 billion to floods, 8 trillion to trade, 100 billion to government fraud, unemployment up 300% dollars value and government down the tubes. Quatloss brake the bank

By Blogger The Peon, at 10/25/2005 1:35 AM  

Agree or disagree...this man never got a fair trial.

A shame quart was willing to do whatever it took to convict him.

Sure you may think this is great if you disagree, but if they can do this to him they can do this to you. When you find yourself at odds with the current system right or wrong do you think you have a chance at a fair trial?

Whether you agree with this man or not or not, how can you Americans sleep at night knowing this man never had a chance at a fair trial?

...From the land of the former free and the home of the former brave.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/25/2005 4:03 AM  

Con artists, Cohen, Neun, and of course the ringleader of the crooks himself, Irwin Schiff; have finally gotten justice served. Lets hope sentences are hard and long.
Schiff has bilked untold millions from innocent people being mislead by his hype and promise of a free lunch.
He's a con artist as are all his cohorts. No, there's no public outcry, other than that which is being orchestrated by a few of Schiff's willing dupes and accomplises.
The public is pleased to see another con man locked safely away. Schiff played his foul game and is finally paying the consequences - long, long overdue. He's a charalatan and a con man of the lowest order. Good riddance.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/25/2005 4:25 AM  

Justice???

Have you been following the trial??

How could you possibly call that justice?

It is one thing to be given a fair trial and be convicted, it is quite another to be railroaded like this man was.

Any person calling this trial justice is a tyrant themselves at worst or completely ignorant at best.

When they came for the Jews I said nothing...because I wasn't a Jew (you know the rest)...

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/25/2005 7:26 AM  

Wake Up People said, U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 10 (partial quote):

"No State shall...make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts..."

So what are we doing using paper (FIAT) money?,


Because the provision of the Constitution you cited does not restrict what Congress can do:

"By the constitution of the United States, the several states are prohibited from coining money, emitting bills of credit, or making anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts. But no intention can be inferred from this to deny to congress either of these powers... The states are prohibited from emitting bills of credit; but congress, which is neither expressly authorized nor expressly forbidden to do so, has, as we have already seen, been held to have the power of emitting bills of credit, and of making every provision for their circulation as currency, short of giving them the quality of legal tender for private debts, even by those who have denied its authority to give them this quality. It appears to us to follow, as a logical and necessary consequence, that congress has the power to issue the obligations of the United States in such form, and to impress upon them such qualities as currency for the purchase of merchandise and the payment of debts, as accord with the usage of sovereign governments...The power of issuing bills of credit, and making them, at the discretion of the legislature, a tender in payment of private debts, had long been exercised in this country by the several colonies and states; and during the revolutionary war the states, upon the recommendation of the congress of the confederation, had made the bills issued by congress a legal tender... The exercise of this power not being prohibited to congress by the constitution, it is included in the power expressly granted to borrow money on the credit of the United States...
This position is fortified by the fact that congress is vested with the exclusive exercise of the analogous power of coining money and regulating the value of domestic and foreign coin, and also with the paramount power of regulating foreign and interstate commerce. Under the power to borrow money on the credit of the United States, and to issue circulating notes for the money borrowed, its power to define the quality and force of those notes as currency is as broad as the like power over a metallic currency under the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. Under the two powers, taken together, congress is authorized to establish a national currency, either in coin or in paper, and to make that currency lawful money for all purposes, as regards the nation government or private individuals."

Juilliard v. Greenman, 110 U.S. 421 (1884)

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/25/2005 9:13 AM  

And this is from the last paragraph of the dissenting judge:

Juilliard v. Greenman, 110 U.S. 421 (1884)

Google Juilliard v. Greenman

"From the decision of the court I see only evil likely to follow. There have been times within the memory of all of us when the legal-tender notes of the United States were not exchangeable for more than one-half of their nominal value. The possibility of such depreciation will always attend paper money. This inborn infirmity no mere legislative declaration can cure. If congress has the power to make the notes a legal tender and to pass as money or its equivalent, why should not a sufficient amount be issued to pay the bonds of the United States as they nature? Why pay interest on the millions of dollars of bonds now due when congress can in one day make the money to pay the principal? And why should there be any restraint upon unlimited appropriations by the government for all imaginary schemes of public improvement, if the printing-press can furnish the money that is needed for them? "

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/25/2005 11:10 AM  

This outcome was 100% predictable. The government employees CANNOT ADMIT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN SCREWING EVERYONE THIS ENTIRE TIME OR ELSE THE PUBLIC WOULD WANT THEIR HEADS! Wake up and listen to Dr. Ed Rivera. He is the only person (and he also happens to be an attorney) that knows how to attain freedom from government. Go to his website and learn.... www.edrivera.com

Perhaps Irwin Schiff will finally listen now that he is in jail. The jury that indicted him in the first place is NOT a valid jury. If he had proven that fact, he would not have to waste time in a trial that ultimately landed him in jail anyway. The government employees are fighting for their lives right now. Understand, they just want to keep getting their paychecks every week and retire with a federal or state pension plan. Problem is, they need you to pay for it. I refuse to pay liars that attempt to extort money from me. Want to be free? Follow me...Ed Rivera has the answers.

www.edrivera.com

Doug

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/25/2005 2:35 PM  

Doug said, "Want to be free? Follow me...Ed Rivera has the answers."

You'd be better off getting legal advice from the Simpsons' Dr. Nick Rivera.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/25/2005 2:51 PM  

IRWIN SCHIFF IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT....100%. HOWEVER HE WILL NEVER WIN IN THE STATE OR FEDERAL COURTS BECAUSE IF HE DID ACTUALLY WIN, IT WOULD SPELL THE END OF THE EXISTING SYSTEM. THIS WOULD MEAN THAT EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE WOULD HAVE TO FIND A PAYCHECK ELSEWHERE. THERE IS A PUBLIC OUTCRY AND WE MUST STAND UP AND SCREAM AS LOUD AS WE CAN NOW. SCHIFF AND NEUN ARE COMPLETELY INNOCENT OF ANY WRONGDOING. THE PREPONDERENCE OF EVEIDENCE WAS IN THEIR FAVOR BUT THE JUDGE REFUSED TO ADMIT THE EVEIDENCE. WHY? BECAUSE, THE JURY WOULD HAVE LET THEM GO! THIS WAY, THE LIES WILL CONTINUE TO PUT INNOCENT PEOPLE BEHIND BARS. I REVOLUTION IS FORMING AND THERE ARE CLOSE TO 100 MILLION PEOPLE READY TO STAND UP AND CHANGE OUR SYSTEM....NOW! REVOLT AGAINST YOUR CONGRESSMEN AND WOMEN. THEY ARE HELPING THE SYSTEM TO PROSPER BY USING INTIMIDATION AND FEAR. DO NOT BE AFRAID. FOLLOW ME TO:

WWW.EDRIVERA.COM

THIS IS WHERE THE TRUTH WILL BE FOUND. THE BLOGGERS SUPPORTING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ON THIS SITE OBVIOUSLY HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN KEEPING THE TAX SCAM GOING...AND WILL LIE TO ANYONE. HE OR SHE IS PROBABLY EITHER A TAX PREPARER, CPA, STOCKBROKER, JUDGE, ATTORNEY OR SOME WORTHLESS GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE TRYING TO SAVE THEIR OWN JOB. WE ARE ON TO YOU....AND IF I WERE YOU, I WOULD START RUNNING BECAUSE WE'RE ON YOUR HEELS AND WANT TO THROW YOU IN PRISON....FOREVER! SAY GOODBYE TO FEAR AND INTIMIDATION...AND SAY HELLO TO FREEDOM (IN YOUR FACE BUSH)!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/25/2005 3:39 PM  

SO YOU THINK YOU KNOW DR. RIVERA? I CHALLENGE YOU PERSONALLY. IF YOU ARE NOT AFRAID THAT IS.....

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/25/2005 3:42 PM  

That guy was right. the Schif shit does not work! You get creamed by the IRS because you are labeled a tax revolter and they have no mercy on you when they finally get you. I lost everything thanks to Irwin. Once the salary levy was placed they have you. Then the porperty lien. By the was, they will automatically reject any offer in compromise due to your revolter status and will not leave you enough money to support your dependant children.

I hope he can stall long enough for me to sue him, before he goes to jail.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/26/2005 9:17 AM  

Irwin convicted.............

2 + 2 can sometimes equal 3 or 5

all animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

What pisses me off about the Income Tax is that it is so unfair.
Individuals pay 40% while corporations like Microsoft pay nothing IS THIS FAIR

ITS TIME TO REPLACE THE INCOME TAX WITH A NATIONAL SALES TAX

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/27/2005 1:01 PM  

Look at Jury Instruction Number 19:
There is no law making people liable. It is only the combination of several codes which TOGETHER make one liable for taxes. Not directly in a SINGLE EASY TO READ CODE. The friggin judge even tells the jury this! And they convict them? Amazing! There is no LAW making anyone liable. Its even in the JURY INSTRUCTIONS. And still they convict... Simply Amazing!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10/28/2005 10:32 PM